Tank Trials: Ultra Low Maintenance Tanks | BRStv Investigates

In the nature it is common that "new" water comes to a coral with a speed of something between a meter per second or a meter per minute. In that way there is a very stable phosphate and nitrate value. Of course in many places the water can stand still for a while when the tide is changing. But that is just 2 - 4 times a day.
In a tank it is extremly uncommon that we chang so much water as a meter of the tanks length in new water per week. That means that if we are keeping very low values in a reef tank they are instable. I have friends that have measured several ppb phosphorous change between "light on" and "light off" in their reef tanks. Low nitrate values are not easily compared because nitrite interferes so much with the hobby test kits.
I would definitly recommend everyone who has less than 10 ppb phosphorous (0,03 ppm phosphate ) to dose. And dont do it manually once a week. Do it everyday with a dosing pump. It is a stable value we want.

I have a 64 gallon tank that has had big problems with cyano since it started 2 years ago. It has to few fishes in but corals enough to keep nitrate at zero and most of the time phosphate too.
I have been testing higher nitrate, higher phosphate and both higher with no success. Going over to a new 2 component calcium/ kH supplement has raised pH to 8,0 - 8,4 each day and now I have a pound of zeolite in the sump that appears to be somewhat positive. The thought is that the Zeolite - Clinophilite binds ammonia so the algae and bacteria only have nitrate as a nitrogen source.
I have not tried poisons against the cyano as i want to try out a method to get rid of the cyano. With a poison you dont change the reason for the cyano outbreak and it will come back. And with as much cyano as i have in the tank the dying cyano would poison the whole tank. Even if the preparate in itself is ok the dying cyano will release other substances.

Stigigemla said:

In the nature it is common that "new" water comes to a coral with a speed of something between a meter per second or a meter per minute. In that way there is a very stable phosphate and nitrate value. Of course in many places the water can stand still for a while when the tide is changing. But that is just 2 - 4 times a day.
In a tank it is extremly uncommon that we chang so much water as a meter of the tanks length in new water per week. That means that if we are keeping very low values in a reef tank they are instable. I have friends that have measured several ppb phosphorous change between "light on" and "light off" in their reef tanks. Low nitrate values are not easily compared because nitrite interferes so much with the hobby test kits.
.

Click to expand...

Essentially, you would be saying flow is higher in the ocean than in a reef tank, or that in a reef tank, downstream of some consumer (e.g., a coral), that N and P are significantly lower than upstream of that user. If it is not, then I don't think the above comment holds true.

You need not replace the tank water with 'new" water, if it is replace with water that contains the same N and P levels.

I've not seen anyone ever test different locations in a reef tank to the degree necessary to make the claim that there are substantial concentration differences of N and P around the display tank itself. It might be true, but I'd be very surprised if uptake was ever that fast because it would quickly drop the whole tank as that low N and/or P water mixed in.

You misunderstand me. All the water that passes the coral will be replaced by "new" water with the same composition how low the flow might be in the nature.
In a reef tank it does not matter how high the flow is. It is the same water that is floating around and if one substance is reduced it wont be replaced the next moment with "new" water.
Thats the reason why low values are not constant in a reef tank but usually is in the nature.
Maybe i should have said very low levels.

Stigigemla said:

You misunderstand me. All the water that passes the coral will be replaced by "new" water with the same composition how low the flow might be in the nature.
In a reef tank it does not matter how high the flow is. It is the same water that is floating around and if one substance is reduced it wont be replaced the next moment with "new" water.
Thats the reason why low values are not constant in a reef tank but usually is in the nature.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree with that first statement, but if someone measures nitrate or phosphate in the water, essentially all the water passing the coral has that value, whether it is new or old, unless you contend that N and P in the bulk water varies considerably around the aquarium. No one has ever shown that and I think it unlikely to be significant in a well mixed aquarium.

The reason why I wright this is in post #741 " I have friends that have measured several ppb phosphorous change between "light on" and "light off" in their reef tanks".
And if you have a change of up to 6 ppb phosphorous every day I believe it is not good for the tank if you have a minimum value in the same magnitude or less.
I also believe that such daily shifts is not common in nature.

Stigigemla said:

The reason why I wright this is in post #741
I also believe that such daily shifts is not common in nature.

Click to expand...

With tidal changes there are changes in concentrations of nutrients present, at least in costal regions.

Below is a link of a study done on an estuary.

How true this is for less dynamic zones, i have no idea.

https://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/JO/pdf/5401/54010065.pdf

I'd also add that some studies show that nutrient uptake is not always uniform across 24 h. Phosphate uptake, for example, can be highest mid day:

Three patterns of nutrient flux in a coral reef community
https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/12/m012p131.pdf

". As an example, NH4+ : flux data are shown in Fig. 1. Here the period during which net community uptake occurred continuously was from about 1100 to 1500 local time. For other nutrients the periods of continuous net uptake were NO2-;-0700 to 1200 local time; DIP- 1000 to 1230 local time; DOP- 1000 to 1300 local time. Mean net release of these nutrients occurred during the rest of the sampling period (e.g. Fig. 1)."

In a reef tank, of course, the nutrient addition rates are not even 24/7 since feeding is not constant. If you are pushing the lower limit of P, it might be worth measuring a few times in a day to see how it varies in your system.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:

I'd also add that some studies show that nutrient uptake is not always uniform across 24 h. Phosphate uptake, for example, can be highest mid day:

Three patterns of nutrient flux in a coral reef community
https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/12/m012p131.pdf

". As an example, NH4+ : flux data are shown in Fig. 1. Here the period during which net community uptake occurred continuously was from about 1100 to 1500 local time. For other nutrients the periods of continuous net uptake were NO2-;-0700 to 1200 local time; DIP- 1000 to 1230 local time; DOP- 1000 to 1300 local time. Mean net release of these nutrients occurred during the rest of the sampling period (e.g. Fig. 1)."

In a reef tank, of course, the nutrient addition rates are not even 24/7 since feeding is not constant. If you are pushing the lower limit of P, it might be worth measuring a few times in a day to see how it varies in your system.

Click to expand...

If you dose no3 and PO4 is it best to try and ramp the dosing up and down based on demand or just dose evenly throughout the day.

I have a neptune dos controlling mine so I have the ability to really tweek how it's dosed but I don't know if it really matters

ULM Tank Trials Ep-21: Maintaining an Ultra Low Maintenance Tank | BRStv

Today we finally get to discuss the actual maintenance schedule of the BRS ULM tanks and how we plan to keep track of each tank's progress. In this episode Ryan will also discuss the larger question surrounding this series, "Why ULM?"

This week's question:
How do you feel about water changes and conducting them for maintenance?

Thanks @randyBRS and @Bulk Reef Supply, these videos are something I look forward to all week

I love that we're going to be able to actually see the exact amount of time you actually spend on these tanks! Love!

I don't mind the water changes i perform weekly if I'm feeling good that day. On the other hand the studies that the BRS team do make you wonder just as Ryan says, if the icp test show everything is as it's supposed to be why do a water change. I wish personally I could have someone from the staff come help me with my tank problems, I'm fighting this tank tooth n nail as far as algae and growth is concerning. Oh well maybe one day I'll win the tank battle. Can't wait till next ULM video, keep up the good work.

Thanks for the video. A good sum up. It is just missing one thing which typically enough you do in the BRS. Note what you are doing. My addition: Add your measured values.

Back to the discussion. In post #746 salinity is fluctuating so much I would not expect a single coral to survive.
But there is a very good example in #747. Anyway phosphate was never zero during the measurements but it did half or double the value.
So from now I will only say never let the value go down to zero.

When you're watching BRSTv listening to @randyBRS and UPS shows up!!! Its going to be a productive weekend!!

My question is: so what do you do with the detritus that collects in the sump or settles on the rocks and sand bed? That’s the really only reason I’ve been continuing with water changes. I’ve never vacuumed my sand bed anyhow (in 7 years) but I do skim the very surface of the sand and rock crevices and shelves with water changes. What happens to all that detritus when you eliminate water changes entirely?

How much do I dislike water changes? A lot. Due to the layout and size constraints of my 115 year old house, an easy method of mixing up salt water and avoiding carrying around buckets of water just isn’t possible, nor is going to an auto water change system. By the time I’ve filtered & mixed enough water, and then performed the actual change (which is the easy part,) it’s generally a minimum of 4 hours...an entire afternoon.

I’ve switched to Red Sea’s coral colors program (haven’t needs NOPOX) and have cut back to monthly changes, but frankly, I can’t see the point in changing water that already has awesome parameters in a stable tank. I see a very small bump in ORP AND pH for a few days, but it’s transient.

playapixie said:

My question is: so what do you do with the detritus that collects in the sump or settles on the rocks and sand bed? That’s the really only reason I’ve been continuing with water changes. I’ve never vacuumed my sand bed anyhow (in 7 years) but I do skim the very surface of the sand and rock crevices and shelves with water changes. What happens to all that detritus when you eliminate water changes entirely?

How much do I dislike water changes? A lot. Due to the layout and size constraints of my 115 year old house, an easy method of mixing up salt water and avoiding carrying around buckets of water just isn’t possible, nor is going to an auto water change system. By the time I’ve filtered & mixed enough water, and then performed the actual change (which is the easy part,) it’s generally a minimum of 4 hours...an entire afternoon.

I’ve switched to Red Sea’s coral colors program (haven’t needs NOPOX) and have cut back to monthly changes, but frankly, I can’t see the point in changing water that already has awesome parameters in a stable tank. I see a very small bump in ORP AND pH for a few days, but it’s transient.

Click to expand...

I siphon my display into a sock in my sump to get rid of detritus. This way I get the benefits of siphoning off the bad stuff but it's not really a water change. I do have an AWC system that changes about 1% a day so over the course of 3 months I get a 100% water change.

lbacha said:

If you dose no3 and PO4 is it best to try and ramp the dosing up and down based on demand or just dose evenly throughout the day.

I have a neptune dos controlling mine so I have the ability to really tweek how it's dosed but I don't know if it really matters

Click to expand...

I don't know what's "best", but I think most folks just dose once a day.

What happens to all that detritus when you eliminate water changes entirely?

Click to expand...

It feeds a larger microbe and pod population.

My anecdotal experience with following along with your progress. And take on maintenance schedule.
Having been running a minimal water change system for 28 days, that was an upgrade from my 3 year mixed reef system(same live rock and livestock)

-going back to filter socks has drastically decreased detritus from prior tank.
Bought enough socks that just have wash them once a month. Recycled salt buckets so dont smell them, clean in one dirty in another.
-skimmer is eventually going to require a full soaking in vinegar or citric acid. I already see some coraline build up from light spill from the fuge.
-have noticed spikes in alk/ca consumption that required more frequent testing with same corals as before. First week less consumption. Each day after that saw random increases in alk consumption some days none others requiring change in dosing pump.
This might be related to lower nutrients or adding one more ai prime for only 6” more tank length. Either way was testing alk daily for the first 3 weeks tweaking 2 part. Only one tank, but might be some benefit in more regular testing early on to dial in for reduced maintenance later.
-took offline my gfo reactor after phosphates bottomed out.

Caveat not using your exact methods.
Using carbon reactor and biopellet reactor as main removal of unwanted chemicals and nutrients.
but same goal: tank that fits my schedule more, hence more stability.

lbacha said:

I siphon my display into a sock in my sump to get rid of detritus.

Click to expand...

This is such a simple solution that I feel kind of dumb that I’ve never thought of it!